Hardcore Cuckolding, A Differing Perspective In Seattle
I have been following an extremely interesting thread on a Cuckolding Forum, a thread that is in effect the story of one husbands cuckolding, off and on, over many years.
I've enjoyed reading the story, but find that other people's comments on it might be very much missing the mark, as they are almost all negative regarding the situation. On the other hand, I have a positive view of that situation.
You can read it for yourself here:
Devavu2009's story is long and involved, but I think well worth the read.
I'm not a member of the forum where it is posted, so have not posted my comments there, but will do so here. Who knows, perhaps Devavu2009 will find them and they will be helpful to him.
One thing that strikes me in reading Devavu2009's story is his deep insecurity. It is clear to me that his wife, through her own actions as recorded by Davavu2009, is truly with him. When Devavu2009 decided that he could no longer be a cuckold, she left her lover and stayed faithful to her husband for years. She chose Devavu2009. Despite that fact his story is repeatedly peppered with statements about how he lost her, how he could not compete. In reading his story it is clearly evident that his cuckolding, both the first and the second time, made up some of the greatest times of Devavu2009's life. Like all relationships though there were occasional problems as he recounts. Devavu2009 doesn't explicitly lay blame for these problems on anyone, but it is implied that they are mainly the result of Aaron's (his wife's lover) actions, and his wife's acceptance of them. I see it differently. To my mind, many of the problems Devavu2009 recounts were directly caused by his own insecurities. I believe that if he was possessed of a reasonable feeling of self worth many of the problems he relates would not have existed, or would have been minimized.
Another contributing factor to the problems I see is the fact that Devavu2009 believes his desires to be submissive, chastised, and cuckolded are deviant and wrong. Surely this feeling has contributed to his insecurity, and compounded the problems he recounts. I must believe that if he had been better able to embrace and accept his desires the problems all three of them faced would not have seemed to be so insurmountable.
In reading Devavu2009's story I notice that he has a bad habit of both asking for things when they are not available to him, and expressing disdain for those same things when they are. For example, his oldest and strongest fantasy is for orgasm denial. He recounts that he asked his wife to deny him repeatedly throughout their relationship. When she does so, or even talks of doing so effectively however he complains to her about it. The Lori's Tube (or it's variant, he is unclear on the point) is a huge fantasy for him before she and Aaron purchase it for him, then he rebels. When she later talks again about putting the tube on his cock, he perceives that as a 'threat.' In my experience dominant women absolutely despise such behavior. If a submissive asks for something he should expect that she may embrace it, and if she does embrace it, he should damn well be thankful for the fact that she is willing to play in that way with him, not start whining and complaining about it. It was, quite specifically in this case, his fantasy, not hers. He introduced it to her, and created the fantasy within her. He must, by any measure of reasonableness be pleased that she is exploring the fantasy that he asked her to explore. Devavu2009 violates this fundamental fairness, over and over again. That certainly contributed to the problems they faced, and indeed, was most likely the fundamental cause of the first shattering of their relationship and the probable second as well.
Related to this last point, Devavu2009 seems to not understand that he creates powerful desires in the minds of those he is intimately involved with. He relates how he would talk to his wife and her lover about how very happy he would be if he were 'locked up forever.' How badly he needs a truly secure chastity device, and how badly he needs his orgasm to be ruthlessly denied. He also relates though that in his own mind these were just words without meaning. He expressed them as facts about himself, while in fact they were nothing to him but hot words in a daydream. Where he lacks understanding is that by presenting these things as facts about himself, he got his wife and her lover thinking about them, thinking about them over the course of years. The 'dreams' of Devavu2009, through his own less than honest communication, became powerful desires within his wife and her lover. Desires that they eventually took steps to act out on their seemingly willing submissive. He expresses a measure of contempt for the fact that they didn't understand that his communications were less than honest, that they should have known he was not serious. My own view is that Devavu2009 was serious about orgasm denial, but that his insecurity, and negative feelings towards his desires, caused him to rebel against those desires. Perhaps though, what he says now is true, and he was lying to them about his desires. Either way, he lacks any sense of understanding that we all have the power to create fantasies within those people whom we are intimate with. This fundamental lack of understanding certainly contributed to the dashing of everyone's joy, including his own. Eventually, he demanded a stop to orgasm denial, and seems to express surprise at the fact that after he had done so his wife and her lover lost all interest in his fantasies and desires. To me, it is not surprising at all, they could no longer trust him, and trust is vital in any alternative sexual relationship.
Devavu2009 writes, "When I am deep into subspace, I always say this sort of thing, and I mean it. At the time." He relates this years after the first breakup that was the result of his earlier dishonesty about orgasm denial. It is regretful that after a disastrous breakup, and after the passage of time, he learned nothing about himself, or the importance of honest communication with his dominant.
Devavu2009 relates that years ago, during the first break up, his wife said to him in regards to his asking for forms of domination, then rejecting them: "Do you think this is all some big game? It's not a game for us. You're fucking with people's lives. With my life." It seems that she was communicating the problems he caused succinctly; it is unfortunate that years later he still does not seem to understand. Understand that she, and her lover, took their domination (domination he asked for) over him extremely seriously and were saddened by the fact that he would be less than truthful about his submission.
Devavu2009 seems also to be overly concerned about what other people would think if they knew about his marriage. He relates that he doesn't want to be a 'fool.' It is clear from his story that none of them parade the facts of the marriage or advertise it, so it is not a fear about what people will think when they learn the truth, rather just a fear of what they would think if they knew. I again think that this concern is driven by his insecurity and low self worth, and must believe that such negative thoughts are harmful as they pass into his consciousness. Devavu2009's wife tells him that he is filled with shame, and needs to simply accept whom he is. Good advice, unfortunately unheeded by him. Related to this Devavu2009 discusses the guilt he feels about his life and his fantasies, guilt despite the joy he finds in exploring such things with his wife and her lover.
Towards the end of the thread Devavu2009 relates that his wife has made her ultimate plan. They are to be divorced, yet Davavu2009 will continue to live with her. She will be married to her lover. This is explained as an easy way for friends and relatives to understand the change, as opposed to simply moving her lover in with her while remaining married to Devavu2009. He will remain to serve them both as their slave, in chastity, still providing oral and other sexual services to them both. She did not ask for Devavu2009's consent, saying, and he admits this, that he has consented to it dozens of times in the past via letters to her asking for exactly that.
The thread ends with Devavu2009 receiving advice from those who have been following it all along. The consensus? Hire a good lawyer, divorce the bitch, move out, get on with life, and hope that next time you find love.
I disagree. Strongly.
In my view Devavu2009 should do as he has promised so many times in the past. He should obey. He should obey his wife, and her lover, submit himself to her plan, and simply embrace their dominance over him.
He should I think:
1. Go to work within himself on his issues of insecurity, and his feelings of low self worth. He needs to realize that submitting to his wife and her lover does not make him weak, indeed submitting as they require is something that very, very few men could ever do. Being able to do so is the opposite of weakness, it is rather indicative of tremendous strength and self-control. He should be taking pride in his submission, pride in his ability to give up so very much for their mutual happiness. He needs to not only come to understand just how strong he is, but to embrace that strength, banishing insecurity, building self-esteem.
2. He writes that he, his wife, and her lover have all found the greatest joys and fulfillments in their lives while living as slave husband, dominant cuckoldress, and dominant lover. It is time that he realize and truly understand that finding joy and fulfillment through the exploration of sexuality by consenting adults is not deviant or in any way wrong. What would be wrong would be to throw all of that happiness away because one is worried about how society views such things.
3. Devavu2009 must stop asking and begging for modes of domination that he does not want. He must recognize the importance of being painfully honest in his communications with his two dominants, and must recognize that when he is less than honest those lies directly impact his dominants by showing them that he does not take their shared relationship seriously.
4. He must learn obedience. He has by his own admission asked for each and every thing his wife and her lover demand of him, over and over again. As a result, when they make such demands, he is obligated to obey. He must realize that to disobey or complain is to hurt those people in his life, and to show himself a liar. They are giving him exactly what he desires, he must obey.
5. He must bring himself to a point of empathy for his wife and her lover. He needs to understand that it is completely unreasonable for him to beg for things, and then refuse to do them, unreasonable for him to spark fantasies within his dominants and then mock those fantasies. He must realize that there are three people in the relationship and that the relationship must be a blending of everyone's desires, not simply something that exists to fulfill his desires of the moment. He must become a partner in the relationship, not a demanding brat, sitting in the corner bitching every time he does not get his way, or more often bitching when he does get his way, but not at the exact moment he wants it.
6. Devavu2009 must realize that if he acts like a spoiled brat, withdrawing himself from the relationship, mocking the very fantasies he created within his wife and her lover that they will feel betrayed by him, and want to spend time away from him. That instead, with open and honest communication, and empathy for their needs and desires, he will be an even more vital part of the triangle and they will want to include him deeper in their lives.
7. He must stop lying about his fantasies, needs, and desires. He must realize that when he lies to his wife and her lover, his lies have powerfully negative effects on their lives, and the relationship they all share.
8. He must understand that there is absolutely nothing wrong, or to feel guilty about when it comes to fulfilling sexual explorations between consenting adults. He needs to stop being concerned about what other people could think, or about any need to feel guilt for his fantasies and their mutual explorations. Instead of worrying about pleasing society, he should be worrying about pleasing himself and his dominants.
9. Devavu2009 should obey his wife; grant her the divorce she seeks. He should ensure that their assets are divided fairly, and take steps to protect the assets he is awarded. He should do this to protect his own future. Beyond that, he should obey and embrace his submission.
10. He should, as demanded, live with his wife and her lover as their denied, humiliated, and worked slave. He should embrace his role, and obey in all ways.
11. He should realize, as his wife pointed out, that he has already consented to this life, consented in the many letters he wrote begging for exactly what she is now demanding. He should accept who and what he is so that he can ride a wave of pleasure and fulfillment along with his wife and her lover, wherever she may decide that wave must lead. He must accept and obey now, for this has the potential to be the greatest ride of his life (as he himself admits throughout the story.) If he does not, he will regret it for the rest of his life, likely a life lived all alone as very few dominants would stick with a slave, husband or otherwise, who put them through what he has put his wife and her lover through.
I encourage you to read Devavu2009's story, it is truly well written and interesting. I would be curious to learn if you agree with my thoughts on it, and what he should do, or if you agree with the consensus on the forum.
Comments
Dear Milliscent-
Excellent review! I agree with your perspectives and comments, in every particular, stipulating the facts as you state them.
I do plan to read the pieces at some point.
What I especially loved was your no-nonsense observations that the male should do as he promised, remain as slave to his remarried ex-wife, and GROW UP.
He has much to do working on himself, and he would probably be best-served doing it as the slave of Mistress who could assist and lead in this growth in self-awareness.
Btw, I have a post coming up which should interest you. It derives from an old post of yours, my recent play with Mistress Amy, and my long-time FemDom relationship with XM.
I think you'll be both surprised and delighted. It does bear some slight, though essential, connection to this post of yours.
-saratoga
Posted by: saratoga | September 20, 2009 6:11 AM
saratoga,
Thank you for your kind compliments on my post.
I would encourage you to read the thread, I found it quite interesting. I did though join the site and post my own thoughts to it last night. Perhaps they will help the cuckold.
I'm not sure that I'll stick with the site very long though, it is rather odd. It seems that quality, well written content is very far and few between, and that many of the regular posters, while professing a desire for submission and cuckolding are instead only interested in getting their own specific fantasies gratified, the enjoyment of the woman in their lives of little or no concern.
I look forward to reading the new post you mention!
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 20, 2009 5:22 PM
Ma'am, thank you for your insightful comments. I debated a long time about writing my story. One reason I decided to let it all hang out is for feedback from thoughtful, intelligent people like you. Ironically, your observations and recommendations are almost an exact mirror of my wife's. I haven't posted this yet, but will tell you, Ma'am: I have surrendered. I am going to do exactly what Annie wants. Every time I acted against her in the past, it has ended up badly. After the last week or so, I have truly realized I am probably the luckiest person in Flordia. How many wives would go to the trouble to even understand, much less accomodate someone like me? Thank you once again for your thoughtful feedback. I wish you all the best.
Posted by: D White | September 21, 2009 5:48 AM
d,
I have enjoyed reading your story very much, including the latest bits posted this morning. I do hope that you will continue posting. I think you will find it to be helpful if you get it all out.
I imagine that my thoughts seemed a bit harsh. Alas, while it is certain that Annie and Aaron made mistakes in the relationship as well, you are the only person we are truly able to know about, so the only mistakes (in my view) that I could point out were yours.
In any event, I am thrilled to read that you have given in to and embraced your desires. I think that it will prove to be a most amazing experience for you.
Indeed you are correct, very, very few women would ever be willing to do what she has done, is doing.
All my best to you as well.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 21, 2009 7:02 AM
You wrote a post a while back about submission and that once one agrees to it, limits are set by the dominant partner...I get tired of cuckolds who proclaim to love it whining about what they proclaim to love...As usual your right on the mark
Posted by: bdenied | September 21, 2009 10:40 AM
I go back and forth between grace and shame. Must be my upbringing. I asked for virtually everything that has happened. The fact is none of it would have happened if not for me. I spent 4 years feeling guilty about what I had done, and how I almost lost my wife.
Life is ironic. What I could not include on those posts is how much we all like each other. I didn't know how to fit it in. There is a lot of D/S stuff - mentally. But nobody acts like that 24/7. Although I sometimes think Aaron could.
Annie is much more loving and sympathetic than I have apparently portrayed her. I would be lying to you if I didn't say I am scared, like I just rolled the dice.
Thank you so much for your thoughts. Yours are by far the most intelligent I encountered there. I really did not write the piece for give and take comments. I wanted to tell what happened, period. I wanted to tell my story. Overall, I am glad I did.
Again, thank you.
Posted by: D White | September 21, 2009 8:41 PM
bdenied,
It was certainly an odd experience when I started reading cuckolds.com. I had expected to find guys hopeful that they would someday be cuckolded, and guys who were cuckolded and loved it.
For the most part, I've only seen the former on the site.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 21, 2009 9:32 PM
d,
Shame and guilt are horrible emotions, rightfully banished from our lives when it comes to consensual sexuality. I hope that someday you are able to overcome that shame, so that you can simply enjoy!
I too imagine that nothing would have happened without you. Certainly it was your idea, but beyond that, I get a sense from reading your story that both your wife and Aaron feed off of your submission, quite deeply. I don't imagine that they would be the sexual gods you think they are if it was not for their dominance over you.
I think that your posts did convey that the three of you get along very well. That is important in a relationship such as yours, and I'm glad that you have it.
There is certainly nothing wrong with being scared, as long as we don't get so scared that we become unable to take risks. What the three of you are doing is very risky, but in my view, the risk is not unreasonable, and if it works, how amazing it will be for each of you. A chance that may come around only once in 100 lifetimes.
I do love reading your story, and I hope that it continues.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 21, 2009 9:39 PM
I have not read this story, so I cannot pass judgment based on its claims. From your description I see a situation that is confirmed repeatedly. I follow a number of blogs whose theme is cuckolding. I have posted at least once on my own blog about what I think of it (see for example, http://hersforever.blogspot.com/search?q=cuckold )
My observation is that most of these are fulfillment of a male’s fantasy. The problem is, except in rare cases, a fantasy is not real. Similarly, in most cases, reality is no longer a fantasy. That is where things go bad.
Except when dealing with ruthless killers, I am for honoring a promise, and paying for the fulfillment of a request. I feel that people, who weasel out of these, especially repeatedly, are worthless beings. If I were subjected to such switching of attitude more than once, I would not have anything to do with this person no matter what he promises. It is exactly like lying repeatedly.
Regardless of who was at fault in this scenario, the person who broke a promise, who lied about an important issue is at fault. I see a very self-centered person here. He or she deserves to be booted out of that relationship.
There is one exception that I wish to point out. Not everybody is a well-adjusted person. We range from extreme to extreme in our psychological makeup. Some don’t have the strength to be honest, truthful, and persevering all the time, or even part of the time. It is seldom that those can be reliable partners in anything. It is not necessarily an intentional bad deed on their part. They may try, but they just don’t have the strength. I am not about to dismiss them. I realize that they have a much harder time at functioning than others. I don’t have the answer to their problem other than try not to get involved in a kinky relationship with them. They can still be friends, relatives, even partners, and be recipient of our support. But we need to have a good system for damage control with respect to them.
Posted by: susan's pet | September 22, 2009 5:38 PM
Susan's pet,
I agree, most of what one can read about cuckolding is driven by male fantasy only, but some do take it further, and create wonderful relationships in which cuckolding plays a major part. Certainly at least a couple of regular posters here fit into that group.
You are 100% correct that when he was switching his acceptance of dominance back and forth, repeatedly, that was in effect lying. Like you, I would not put up with it for long.
Luckily for him, his wife, and her lover are still willing to give it another try, see if the relationship can be salvaged. Perhaps it can, perhaps he has learned from the mistakes of the past. I certainly hope so.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 22, 2009 10:18 PM
I must agree with the blowing hot and cold. However I also find the apparent withdrawal of certain intimacies a worrying sign. To have sex with another is fun, to withold your breasts from your husband is hot hot. But if it's true the feeling I had from reading it, that he can't walk down the road hand in hand, or lie in bed together and hug and kiss in a simply loving not sexual way. If that's true I don't give the relationship too long. I don't think either party would find it healthy after a while.
But who knows...
Posted by: Mykey | September 23, 2009 3:27 PM
My Key,
I know that some people read into his story that intimacy was being removed from the relationship. I didn't read it that way, but of course we were all at a disadvantage when the question was not cleared up by the author.
He has posted again, and stated that intimacy is growing in the relationship.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 26, 2009 12:03 PM
I have to say with those wonderful new breasts I am amazed that he didn't touch them or enjoy them in the four years they were monogamous. An opportunity lost now!
Posted by: Mykey | September 27, 2009 12:43 AM
This story and your views on it struck a chord with me as Em has recently expressed a desire to find a lover with whom she can have a more emotionally-based relationship, someone that she not only enjoys sex with but someone she could care for.
There are reasons why she has gotten to this point in her thinking. I am considerably older than she is and eventually, if our lives follow the course we plan for, I will die before she does. I am submissive and a cuckold, so from my perspective if Em forms a bond with another person that satisfies our own desires, functions in the present, and helps her bridge into a happy life after I'm gone how could I refuse to live by my convictions.
In the story D. tells here, he expresses his own dishonesty and insecurity. He details how difficult it was for him to give Annie the power he wanted her to take when she chose to take it.
My second wife and I reached a point in our relationship where she explicitly demanded my honesty and trust. I was at a point in life where I felt the need to be explicit and honest with her. She assured me that everything would be okay, that she would love me, and that we could move beyond it together. She emphasized that she loved me and that I could and should trust her.
But when I did just that, it altered the situation. Without being able to control her own feelings at that point, she betrayed the assurances that she had given and demanded a divorce. Worse, still my own parents and siblings sided with her and I found myself out on my ear, depressed, abandoned, and ashamed. Worse still, I felt like a fool.
In years of therapy afterwards, I found many people telling me that, though I did the right thing that I had been naive in trusting her. Which was apparently true but what good did that do me after my life had burned to the ground? So what if I learned a valuable lesson?
I find myself in agreement with Susan's Pet. People's inner lives aren't as neat and tidy and manageable as they believe them to be. So I give this guy D. some slack for being a dishonest, insecure, and flawed human being. He, Annie, and Aaron appear to have finally worked the issues out and are proceeding with the lives they have chosen. That's great.
To me this is a painful, messy, but ultimately successful story in which love and trust find a way. I understand his fears and weaknesses. Aaron and Annie appear to understand him too. He is, after all, the one that must make the biggest adjustment and has the most to gain or lose.
His story is extreme and, if true, represents a highly unusual reality. It has an internal consistency but there's no way to verify it. Ultimately, that's beside the point. It challenges us to consider the lives we desire, to overcome our fears, and to live genuinely.
Best,
scott
Mrs. Kelly's Playhouse
www.mrsemmakelly.com
Posted by: scott Kelly | September 27, 2009 7:35 AM
My Key,
I wonder if he did not retain his own cuckolding fantasies in his head while they were monogamous.
In other words, I wonder if he didn't enjoy the feeling of being cuckolded so much that he continued to interact with her erotically in the same way as he did while he was being cuckolded. A way to keep the feelings, to convince himself that he was still living the dream.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 27, 2009 9:03 AM
scott,
I know from personal experience that your relationship, and your love, can survive Em falling in love and becoming deeply emotionally involved with another man. The skills needed to do so are different from those needed to enjoy cuckolding, and such things need to be done with great care for everyone involved, but it is certainly possible, and such relationships open up amazing possibilities. There are lots of books out there now about Polyamory, I can’t say that I’ve ever agreed with everything I’ve read in them, but I have found reading to be a valuable resource.
I’ve been married for 20 something years now, and our marriage seems to flow very easily through what the vast majority of people would view as extremely huge, likely relationship ending changes. New partners, new loves, new arrangements, new fantasies to explore.
It was not though always like that. Throughout the course of my marriage we wanted it open to sexual and emotional experiences with others. At the start it was hard. Extremely hard. Things often got emotionally messy, horrible fights seemed fairly frequent, and feelings were often badly hurt. We had to learn as we moved along, and it seems like we insisted on learning everything the hardest way possible.
We did though, always keep two things in mind. We refused to let the relationship fail, and we refused to stop exploring things with others. We knew that if we kept learning, we would eventually discover how it should be done and that the benefits of openness were worth all the pain. In the end we did, and it was.
Certainly it was a deeply maturing process.
I am sorry to read of what happened with your previous wife, but I imagine that you learned a great deal from that experience, learned things that will help you make further explorations with Em successful.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 27, 2009 9:24 AM
Hi Ms. Milliscent,
All those troubles were twenty years ago and long since processed. Some lessons are harder learned than others. But Em and I have yet, after eighteen years, to be unable to resolve whatever issues arise.
Cuckolding has been something we've embarked on together and we feel ready, after more than ten years, for the next level.
Thanks as always,
scott
Mrs. Kelly's Playhouse
www.mrsemmakelly.com
Posted by: scott Kelly | September 28, 2009 3:46 PM
Hello Ms. Milliscent,
I much appreciate this insight into your own experience. I knew that you had a deep and abiding marriage that has allowed both of you to explore your sexuality.
Em and I have been together for almost eighteen years and are bonded closer than we've ever been and very happily.
New territory may require new adjustments and accommodations. If I may rely on you in the future for your insight and opinions it would be greatly appreciated by Em and I both.
Best,
scott
Mrs. Kelly's Playhouse
Posted by: scott Kelly | September 28, 2009 8:17 PM
scott,
Of course, I would be pleased to offer any advice you and Em may ever want. For what it's worth.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | September 29, 2009 2:12 PM
These posts are very good infomational points for any cuckold relationship, well done,
Posted by: billy | October 4, 2009 4:40 PM
billy,
Thank you! I am pleased that you found value in my post.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | October 4, 2009 6:16 PM
It is a pitty he has stopped posting. I guess the people who are concerned about his situation scared him off. Maybe you should contact him and offer your blog as a forum for his story. More one way communication, fewer comments.
Posted by: Ipyramid | October 5, 2009 9:26 AM
lpyramid,
I think that it was not a good forum for him to post his story in. I think that bdsm folks would have better understood the motivations driving him, and the other two. Alas, that particular forum seems almost wholly populated by men who seek to use women for fulfillment of their personal fantasies.
He is of course welcome to use this forum for his story, and he has commented in this thread a couple of times. Additionally, he has written to me privately with some more information about himself and his history.
M
Posted by: Milliscent | October 6, 2009 11:26 AM